one of my favorite lotr facts is that gondorians speak sindarin as a first language and yet when faramir was talking to frodo and sam about cirith ungol he was like “we don’t know what’s in there.” like faramir. cirith ungol is sindarin for “pass of the spider.” do the math
some of my favorite tags on this post
Don’t forget that Frodo also speaks Sindarin, which makes this even worse.
Faramir: Hey, don’t go up the Spider Stairs.
Frodo: Why? What’s up the Spider Stairs?
Faramir: We don’t know, Frodo. We just don’t know.
to be fair, you’d assume the name means “there’s a lot of spiders here,” not, “there is one spider the size of a draft horse here.” so you go up expecting to have to shoo a lot of skeeter eaters out of your tent, and instead you have to figure out how to rope and shoe godzillarantula.
Hmmm…
They do live in a world where godzillarantulas feature prominently in mythology and history (Ungoliant plunged the world into darkness, scared the crap out of Sauron’s old boss, etc) and existed within the last century in Mirkwood. Assuming they ever talk to anyone who’s been to Mirkwood. They… probably know they were giant spiders in Mirkwood pretty recently? It’s hard to figure out how much anyone in Middle-earth has been talking to anyone else when we didn’t actually see it.
On the other hand – what if it’s the giant evil spiders’ prominence in history/mythology that’s causing trouble? What if lots of evil/nasty things/places get called “spider” just to indicate how nasty and evil they are, rather than any association with literal spiders, and it’s just… overloaded? Maybe the bad part of town in Minas Tirith is the Spider District. Maybe every tavern trying to be edgy calls itself the Spiderweb.
Actually spider/Ungoliant references could be really appealing to Gondorians trying to be edgy. They’re dark and evil! Plunged the world into darkness! But they AREN’T involved in the war they’re actually fighting, they aren’t directly associated with Sauron at all, so getting too interested in them would be creepy without being potentially treasonous. Because no one’s ACTUALLY going to worship those dangerous but not epic spiders up in Mirkwood, and no one’s heard anything from any proper spawn of Ungoliant in ages and ages.
In fact, spider/Ungoliant references might be appealing to ORCS trying to express that something is nasty and creepy! Nobody likes Ungoliant.
Maybe Faramir’s been to fourteen different Spider Caves across Ithilien, and half of them he didn’t even see regular spiders in, they’re just dark and damp and may have had orcs at some point, or something, and at some point in history someone got spooked. So you know, it’s POSSIBLE Spider Pass has something to do with spiders? But really it just means people don’t like it.
(The problem with this theory is we never actually SAW anyone overusing spider references. But it’s plausible they would!)
This sounds like something Tolkein would agree with.
that actually makes a lot of sense. there are probably hundreds of river rapids in north america called Devil’s Cauldron. if someone tells you not to canoe on that river, you’ll assume it’s because the rapids will smash your boat, not because the literal devil will boil you for soup.
me, looking at the current state of the world, crying:I wish none of this had happened…
Gandalf, materialising in my conscience, smiling kindly: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, besides the will of evil.
This is wonderfully helpful.
There’s also Sam: “It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something.”
That feeling when you watch Fellowship of the Ring and realize that the lotr soundtrack seeped into your bones sometime in your childhood and became a physical part of you
So I find it interesting that Tolkien has a lot of master/servant dynamic with his characters. In fact, I like to think that that is one of the things that both Frodo and Sauron share. In the books, you have Sam calling Frodo “Master Frodo”. When reading LOTR, that always stood out to me. Sam was also described a “servant” of Frodo, if my memory is correct. He follows Frodo until the very end. And, like Sauron does, has to part ways with his master.
That is how I also like to look at the relationship between Melkor and Sauron. Sauron, loyal until the very end, having to part with Melkor when he is thrown into the Void. However, unlike Frodo and Sam, we know that Sauron will eventually join Melkor in the darkness.
Just some ideas. Any thoughts? I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy for seeing the comparison.
No I see it too. When I first read Silm I kind of saw them as the more evil version of Frodo and Sam
I think it makes sense because Tolkien is writing from the perspective of the world he grew up in, which had pronounced class differences.
Tolkien fans: Tolkien is a good author. But he’s sexist and
treated some of his women poorly. In his early works, many were just for the sake
of giving their husbands sons, and weren’t really developed. There were some
exceptions but Tolkien was still a man in the 20th century living in
a sexist society, his work shows.
Tolkien fans: *nod in agreemant. Makes metas and posts to
support this. Makes networks to support tolkiens women especially those women*
Tolkien fans: Tolkien is a good author. However, he wrote
some of his character—the dwarves into anti-Semitic tropes. Tolkien was still a
white man in the 20th century living in an anti-Semitic society and his
writings reflect that.
Tolkien fans: *nods in agreemant. Makes metas to support
this. Has positive discussions about this*
Tolkien fans (of color): Tolkien is a good author, but he
isn’t perfect. His works exhibit racism and dangerous caricatures. Some of his
characters are also tools and vices of racism/white feminism. He introduces
themes and subjects of colonization (in a positive light), racial profiling,
and harmful and intentional stereotyping of people of color. Tolkien is a white
man in the 20th century living in a racist society, his writing reflects
that.
White tolkien fans: “okay this is bullshit.” “This is too
far.” “this is a stretch” “You’re making up claims to hide your sexism.” “I don’t see racism but I see sexism sweaty.” “Tolkien
lived in south Africa he wasn’t racist at all.” “Look at this dumbass post.”
*writes metas proving other wise. Calls this fandom discourse. Week long disputes.
Writes posts about how calling out racism white women is sexist*
Yeah no offense but you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about.
You know how much shit I’ve gotten in my inbox telling me I clearly haven’t read the books/I’m stupid/I’m problematic or a bad person for villain sympathizing?
That’s not other people’s posts. That’s people feeling the need to send me actual fucking anon hate over my opinions on fictional characters.
And about that one post that called people who like villains problematic…I’d count that as a generally rude message towards people who hold those opinions. It wasn’t an actually thought out argument. It was “you’re problematic for sympathizing with these characters”. I’m allowed to react accordingly to shit like that.
I do generally try to stay out of this stuff, but when a good 25-40% of the asks I get are some shit about me being some kind of evil idiot who’s never read the books?
Yeah I’m going to be salty.
@cerulean-shark You should start posting them so people can see the shit you deal with
it’s possible to be a dick to someone without oppressing them and being a dick to someone who isn’t harming you is still not ok regardless.
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